Something I’ve noticed since being in the ministry: If you’re in the ministry (pastor, elder, worship leader, preacher, etc…) people look at you funny if you have a beer. Even Christians. As if church members can have beer but the pastor can’t.
Why?
Is it because those in ministry are leaders and ought to set the example? If that’s the case - aren’t all Christians in some sphere of ministry and shouldn’t we all be setting an example?
My wife brings up the point of Paul’s concept about being all things to all people. I do agree that as those in a clear leadership role for the church we should not be a stumbling block. But think about this scenario:
Pastor Joe is hanging out with his family. His family is all church goers. They bring a few bottles of beer and when Pastor Joe has one all his Christian cousins and uncles look at him funny as they drink their beer.
At the end of the day, it may boil down to a case by case basis. Really, I am curious for thoughts about the separation of platform and pew.
John Stansbury said:
Ya bring up something interesting I’ve been dealing with over the past couple of months. We had a Messianic Jew give a presentation about the Passover, and the undeniable allusion to Jesus as the Christ. I couldn’t shake my visceral reaction when he said something about drinking the wine, since he was talking to a bunch of Southern Baptists.
Regardless of how many times I hear about Jesus pouring the wine, I get that knee–jerk reaction to demon alcohol. The Southern Baptists were the spearhead for the temperance movement (you can see what it was like in In His Steps). I remember reading it on the wall of our fellowship hall in a church in Mississippi.
Yet, for all the work of the SEC schools, there Jesus is, messing with fermented grapes. His first miracle was to change something into something else, making something ordinary into something exceptional. It was water into wine — wholly unacceptable and completely unseemly for somebody who claims to be a Christian.
That’s what makes it difficult for me. I’ve got this ingrained logic that proves that whatever is true is false, and whatever is false it true. Somehow, I can believe it was either 30 million years, 6 seconds, 6 weeks, 6 years, but anything but 6 literal days of creation.
Yet, there’s The Way, doing something that my denomination deems unChristian. This is what I’ve thought about for a while.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 1:57 am
Aaron said:
whilst being in KC last year i thought the antidrinking culture seemed really excessive. personally i don’t drink. but most christians in England do - most leaders do too, nothing is really thought of it.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 3:16 am
Phil said:
It’s an interesting point. I don’t have a problem with having the odd drink, as long as it is in moderation. I used to see the Vicar of my home church in the pub every Saturday evening, with his friends enjoying a pint. As I saw it, the people he was with were non-Christian and this was the way he could meet with them and build friendship with them. Jesus’ first miracle was water into wine, but we don’t know if he drank any or not. He used wine at the last supper, so in my eyes it’s ok to drink it, BUT, it has to be in moderation and we have to avoid drunkeness.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 5:24 am
Andy said:
I have the opposite problem… if you can call it a problem… I don’t drink - 99% because I don’t like the taste - 1% because I didn’t grow up with it as acceptable. Now I find it hard to “hang” with the neighbors. They are out having a beer watching life go buy - they ask(ed) me if I want a beer - I say no, I don’t like beer - awkward silence… … …now what. I think I have to start telling them I am an alcoholic - they would then respect me for not having a beer instead of thinking I am some odd-ball.
So I told my wife I should start drinking beer to be a better witness… but then being in the ministry all my Christian friends will start to look at me funny… just can’t win
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 7:21 am
mmmmmm beer said:
i’ve found this to be almost a strictly western issue. alcohol has been deemed inappropriate by the church in the west (in general). in the past year and a half i’ve walked around in about 25 or so countries, and only in the States have i seen such a unique response to alcohol. it was fascinating to me to see how acceptable it was everywhere else in the world in which i’ve traveled.
moderation is a fascinating concept because everything is done (or should be) with balance. eating. tv. running. reading. sleeping. knitting. heavy petting. too much of anything is bad, so to single out the idea of moderation in regards only to alcohol is a pretty poor use of the phrase, in my opinion. maybe not poor, but simply now whole.
beer and wine are delicious drinks. some people like them. some do not. some abuse them. some do not.
i am a pastor. this is a non-issue in our church gathering. we teach balance in all of life, from small to large concepts.
i think i’ll go have a tall newcastle right now.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 7:45 am
BlogWatch said:
Preacher Got A What?…
A keg in the pulpit … we not that bad, but a discussion of preachers and beef at the Fight Spot…….
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 8:30 am
Pseudo-Polymath » Blog Archive » Morning Highlights said:
[…] A keg in the pulpit … we not that bad, but a discussion of preachers and beef at the Fight Spot. […]
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 8:31 am
Phil said:
@mmmmmm Beer, I totally agree moderation and control comes into every aspect of life, but this discussion is about alcohol and so to use moderation in this aspect is important to be stressed on this particular situation.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 8:33 am
JoAnna said:
That’s funny. I litterally was thinking about this very topic yesterday and wondered why I’ve never seen anything about it on your blog! HA!
My husband and I pastor a church.. and both grew up in ‘the ministry’. Not only did Jesus drink and make wine, but Paul said a little wine daily is good for the stomach. The Bible also says to obey the laws of the land and to not be drunk with wine. No, we are not supposed to be a stumbling block and yes, we are supposed to be all things to all people. I definately believe it is a case by case basis… just like everything else. Think about the way women dress. When the occasion is right, a very strappy - clingy dress is very appropriate, but most of the time not. On the boardwalk a halter top and short shorts are appropriate, but in other locations and instances that attire wouldn’t even begin to cut it. My husband and I choose not to drink in most settings because we have no idea what silent things people are dealing with. If everyone would just ask what we think & what the Bible says… it would be easy to live out my beliefs at all times, but most don’t. Most people internalize their self-created reasons for what they see and base belief systems off those thoughts that may or may not be aligned with His Word. At times, it is very appropriate and yes, will help our witness and at other times maybe not.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 8:52 am
Marc said:
I personally believe we are not to drink beer or wine. One might be able to make a case for wine since it was in Biblical times but beer was not. We are not to be conformed to this world. We are to be set apart. Could the wine during Biblical times be less alcoholic? I once read that the fermentation process today is a lot different from Biblical times. I am curious to know were in the Bible it said that Jesus drank wine.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 10:18 am
Ducky said:
Do you think part of it has to do with American culture? I think that in Europe it is more acceptable to drink alcohol, especially with meals. My impression is that Europeans tend to drink in moderation; they have not made alcohol a god like some have in the U.S.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 10:44 am
Idhrendur said:
I’m all for responsible drinking of alcohol. Of course, if an individual cannot do so responsibly, then they should not drink at all. That’s just basic wisdom. But to insist that you cannot drink, simply because, is just useless legalism.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 10:58 am
Esther said:
Jesus was a Christian? I always thought He was a Jewish man who taught and followed the Jewish customs and laws. I think we try to westernize the Bible more than we should. He was fully God, but He was fully Man, too. God knew exactly what culture His Son was being born into. Americans may have demonized wine, but the Jews didn’t. They were thankful for what God gave them.
I don’t drink. I used to, but one day God asked me to put it aside and it was not a problem to do so. In New Zealand it is very common to drink and bring wine for dinner. I have no problem with this. When someone asks me if I want a wine to drink, I just say - a juice would be lovely, cheers. I don’t really care what man thinks, I care what God told me to do.
As far as the alcohol content, I think Marc is right; I have heard there were 2 different wines - one for everyday drinking and another for celebrating. Maybe someone more knowedgeable than me can comment on that.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Michaela said:
@Marc - The N.T. has 50 references to wine (NASU version), but the two most direct about Jesus drinking wine would be The Last Supper Discourses (Matt 26:29, Mark 14:25, Luke 22:18) - Mark 14:25 “Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” - NASU
This was during Passover celebration and wine was used for this meal. In fact, as a good Jew, Jesus would have had Shabbat every Friday evening of his life drinking wine at the meal.
As well, in Matt 11:18 - Jesus is refered to as a “drunkard” - not an accusation that was ever made against John the baptizer. If you want someone who obstained - he’s your example.
I don’t think there’s much of a case to be made for a different fermentation process or beer vs. wine. Beer hadn’t been invented yet… if we are going to throw out things not invented in Biblical times, then you guys are going to have to take off the blue jeans and put on a tunic/dress again.
@Shawn - as far as your original question - I think there is a seperation between the platform and the pew. 2000 years of church culture, or maybe 1900 years is more accurate. God doesn’t count our assignments or vocations differently, but we do.
I try to use wisdom and consider who I am with when I decide what to drink with my food. Your right, Ducky, It’s an issue in America, especially in the southern half of the US and a non-issue in about every other part of the world.
I’ve celebrated Shabbat here and there with Messianic Jewish friends and it has been far more meaningful to me to take communion with wine rather than grape juice.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Marc said:
God also asked me to put aside alcohol and chewing tobacco 10 years ago to consecrate myself to Him. When Jesus said, “…drink of the fruit of the vine…” What does that mean? Did He squeeze some grapes into a cup? Did he ferment some grapes? There is no clear indication if it was grape juice or what we commonly call wine today. If feel this is such a gray area (aka: case by case basis). Since it is a gray area and there is no clear written explanation why play with possibility of it offending God. I believe we each need to ask the Holy Spirit to uncover any hidden “foxes” (to borrow a phrase from Mike Bickle’s teaching) the small compromises in our life. Psalm 139:23-24 is a good place to begin.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 3:47 pm
BenDShaffer said:
I shall throw my worm into this proverbial can…..
I once heard (hearsay, rumor) that “wine” was simply grape juice. Since there were no refrigerators the juice would eventually ferment and become what we now know as wine. The best wine or the “new wine” was the stuff that was just squeezed, or non-fermented.
I have never heard that before, or since then actually.
Just some more gasoline on the fire, stirring up of the hornets nest, waking up the sleeping dog, etc.
Ben
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Michaela said:
@Marc - I totally respect that the Lord asked you to do that and fully believe that is right for your life. He is a good and wise leader.
I probably wasn’t fully clear before. I think it’s different for every believer. I disagree with a whole blanket statement that it is sinful for evyer believer.
For some, the Lord asks or requires them to give up some liberties such as alchohol or tobacco. That is the life that John the Baptist lived.
Matt 11:18-19 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.” NKJV
I think just on the strength of the Matthew verse we can understand that Jesus drank wine.
As well, in Luke, Zacharias was given instruction that John wasn’t to be given wine or strong drink (Luke 1:15). There is no record of Mary or Joseph receiving similar instruction.
Do I think that some believers who are, like John the Baptist, required to drink no alcohol? Absolutely. Do I think that this is true for every believer? No.
I curious about what you think, Marc. Do you feel the restrictions required of you by the Lord apply to every believer? If you do, what scriptures back up your point?
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Esther said:
Ben, that so appealed to me about the new wine until I wondered about the verse in Gen 9:20-21 about Noah who grew a vineyard, drank some of the wine and got drunk. Also, what about the verses about the winepress? I don’t have the answers, I’m just throwing out questions.
I looked at Wikihow.com (if it’s on the internet, it must be true) and there is a bit more to making wine than letting it sit for awhile. Which is probably a relief to a friend who spent a few years getting a degree in making wine… There’s quite a bit of science to it these days anyway.
But that doesn’t really answer the original question that Shawn asked. Which I think was really about leadership and followership and how to do both. You could probably substitute many things instead of wine or beer.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Jerry James said:
At the end of the day, it may boil down to a case by case basis?
That would add up to more than a glass of wine a day for the stomach.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Marc said:
@Michaela-I do not think what the Lord asked me to give up for Him applies to every believer.
I am curious why Christians drink alcohol?
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 7:38 pm
joshua longbrake said:
I had a Sam Adams Summer Wheat tonight.
I thought of you, Blanc.
Then I thought of Jesus.
And how Jesus would probably want a Guinness as opposed to a Sam Adams Summer Wheat, because he seems more like a stout kind of guy to me.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Esther said:
@Marc - why do Christians do a lot of things they do?
Praise God that He is merciful! I think of some of the things I’ve done in my 52 years and I can tell you definitely, God is merciful! And praise God that He is a relational God who wants relationship on a personal basis. So that makes my relationship with God different than yours yet all of us together have a corporate relationship with our God. We pray together, Our Father who art in heaven…
Maybe I’m getting off subject.??
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 11:18 pm
FastingChriS said:
Well, I have no problem with you wanting a beer or fine wine. The problem I have is always the phrase “moderation” or “excess”.
We have to deal with ourselves first and the whole issue of causing another to stumble. I’ve been in both camps those that love it and those that hate.
The last church I was a part of the elders and Pastors all enjoyed Port, Beer, and some indulged in the occassional cigar. Problem, when does it become excess? By the time one determines he/she has a problem its too late. Jesus may have drank and served wine but he was never drunk. Like my strict Pastor once said, “If you never drink alcohol you’ll never get drink.”
So its personal and yet we should consider how it affects others not because “we have too”, but because we desire to see many come into the Kingdom, Grow, and flourish in intimacy with God.
As for relevancy and witnessing there is no indication that when Jesus turned water into wine anyone got saved.
Spurgeon smoked cigars and he defined excess as more than one in each hand!
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 11:25 pm
FastingChriS said:
How do you confront your Senior Pastor when you think he might be drinking for the “buzz” and to cope with stress. Its one thing when he says: “I love a good micro-brew.” Quite another when he has finished a six pack and is drowning his sorrows. Not likely to happen you say? The clergy are the fastest growing categories of professionals with drug and alcohol addiction.
I don’t want to visit my Pastor at rehab.
Posted on June 1, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Ruth said:
What Ducky says is true. Here in europe it’s not even a question as a christian if you can drink alcohol or not.
You drink alcohol with dinner..and then you hang out with your friends and you drink alcohol, that would be wine or beer. it’s kinda normal around here, i wouldn’t look funny to my pastor if he had a beer in his hand.. only if he would have it during his preaching..duh..
but this does not mean that christians get drunk here all the time…most christians i know do not get drunk.
a worshipteam from the States was here in Holland a few weeks ago and they brought this issue up and they also thought it was more like a cultural issue.
It’s like tattoo’s..i’ve heard it’s more common in america to have a tattoo as a christian..but where I come from people really think it’s way too unbiblical to have a tattoo…if i would take a tattoo here…i would be a stumbling block for many.
Back to alcohol - if the pastor isn’t allowed to drink, then i believe the church family shouldn’t either. The people in the church are the face of the church if you know what i’m saying. they set an example so it’s not like they can drink a beer and the pastor can’t. pastor drink - church drink. pastor no drink - church no drink.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 1:57 am
Hollie said:
When I served as a campus minister, we had to sign a covenant to not drink in public. Especially in our town because in a college town like Athens, there’s nothing but bars. You just never knew when a freshman might see you from across the room and what kind of conclusions they might draw. However, some of us who worked together would often enjoy a beverage when we gathered in our homes for dinner or movie night.
I think it is case by case, though, if for no other reason than personality traits. Those who have a family history of alcoholism or an addictive personality probably shouldn’t partake whether they be pastor, layman, or unbeliever. However, if you don’t have either of those two issues to consider, then i think you need to just be discerning about the company your in.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 6:16 am
Marc said:
For those of you who drink beer or wine, why do you drink it?
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 9:25 am
Abby said:
Interesting post.
I think for me it’s not just people in ministry or leaders in the church. I look at everyone funny when they have a beer.
Then as for drinking to get closer to people you’re witnessing too… I would say this is not a good plan. I don’t think it is wise to bring yourself to a persons level to witness to them. It is easier to be pulled down than it is to pull someone up. What you are doing in theory is good, you’re trying to understand the person better. But in practice it is very dangerous.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 9:36 am
Phil said:
@Marc, my friends and I like to have a beer because we like the taste of it. It’s a nice drink, but because of it’s content we are responsible when we have one. My friends who are Christians share that level of responsibility, and my non-Christian friends accept the fact we will only have one. I know someone else who is a Christian who won’t have a beer because he doesn’t like the taste of it but is fine with people drinking it.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 9:48 am
Ben G. said:
@Shawn: You’ve stirred up a bloody hornet’s nest now mate!
@someone else (no one in particular really): First, wine is more than just fermenting grape juice. There’s a process for creating it to make it drinkable. If you disagree just let a jug of grape juice sit in the summer sun for a couple weeks and then take a big ol’ swig. You’ll throw up. Wine was made on purpose. That whole “new wine” argument is crap and anyone who has studied Biblical history will tell you so.
Also, consider that people didn’t _have_ to drink wine. John the baptist didn’t drink wine.
I occasionally drink a few beers (and I also love cigars but that’s a different story). Why do I drink beer? Well, I don’t like the taste of wine but I love the taste of beer. I also like the buzz it gives me. I’ve never been drunk though, never, not once. After a few beers I loose a taste for it and switch to iced tea or water.
If I were around ex-alcoholics I would not drink. It’s that whole “not causing your brother to stumble” thing. To a certain extent we are responsible for other’s sin. If I have an ex-alcoholic over to my house and drink in front of them then it’s my fault if they stumble. But if I go to a bar and have a drink and an ex-alcoholic sees me drinking then I have to ask myself “why are they in a bar?”
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 10:07 am
Christy said:
@joshua longbrake: LOL!!!!!!
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Jenn said:
I’ve come across this question and others like it (mostly regarding tattooing and piercing) in my own life. And here is my conclusion: The people that I minister to may very well be wrong. They may be prejudiced and ignorant and I may very well be much more intelligent than they are. I may be living in abundant freedom and their legalism may very well have them trapped, but the resounding question has been, “To whom have I sent you?” Bottom line is that God didn’t plant me in London or Germany or Israel. He put me in the deep south, where alcohol is “demonized.” Disagree with the culture, but respect it. I can’t count the times that God has admonished me, “Love them more… more than your desires, more than yourself. Love them more.” So, I can’t have a drink with dinner (not that my taste buds are complaining) and maybe I’ll never ink my skin, but really, in light of eternity, is it that big of a deal? Is it a question of morality, like say, mixed race marriages or befriending a homosexual, or is a question of selfishness? If it’s a morality issue, then admonish with love. If it’s a selfishness issue, suck it up and crucify your flesh.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Idhrendur said:
@Jenn: Ooooooohhh. Burn. Yeah, I’ll agree with you. Of course, I’m in California, where that perspective isn’t an issue, but it’s still good to have the framework prepared in case its ever needed…
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Ben G. said:
Some people in my church think it’s unChristian to ride a motorcycle. Others think it’s unChristian to watch rated R movies. Others think it’s unChristian to dance anything other than the foxtrot. Others think it’s unChristian for men to have hair over their ears. Others think it’s unChristian to “fill in the blank”. You’ve just got to decide where you draw the line on how much you’re going to let other’s unbiblical views on life decide what you do and do not do. Sometimes I think we ministers just need to nut-up and tell people that it’s fine if they “don’t prefer” something but don’t make something into a sin unless God does.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Ben G. said:
@ Jenn: After reading that last comment of mine I feel I should apologize to you. I’m not meaning to snark at you, so I apologize for being out of line. I think I just have serious issues with someone other than God telling me how to live. I’m sure it’s just immaturity. I go now to repent and think about what you said.
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 9:12 pm
JoAnna said:
Marc - why do christians drink? When around my family in California (who all grew up thinking that christians are stiffs and are only about all the ‘rules’ we follow) and they are all drinking wine with dinner or champagne at a wedding - I will taste it. I personally don’t really like alchohol at all, but I will taste it anyway… That simple act has softened a lot of hearts toward Jesus. When people are so convinced that christians are this or that, that they won’t EVER listen to anyone… sometimes it takes becoming one of them to gain the trust. After they see that I’m ‘normal’ and not just born a ‘goody-two-shoes’ or something, then they listen to how much God loves them. NOT before. I have known of someone once who went door to door witnessing and the lady he was talking to wanted him to smoke a cigarette with her. She was adamant. Only after smoking with her was he able to share the love of Christ.. and she became a believer! No, I don’t think we should hang out in bars all the time just for the heck of it, but if the Holy Spirit moves to you to a particular thing - who cares if its ‘against the grain’?
Posted on June 2, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Theresa said:
Wow, a few comments on this one. I will be comment #37 and put in my two cents. I think the argument that social drinking is acceptable for christians in other countries is fine if you are in those countries. In America, like if or not, christians that drink are a stumbling block to the world. I think if you go out and are seen drinking most people would see that as compromise and a poor witness. If you like to drink, do it at home. To me is a love issue. Do I love the people that know me enough to not drink in public? The same could be said about the clothes I wear, the words I use, my attitudes and opinions. Personally, I want to be blameless and offer a christlike witness. Whether Jesus drank wine, or people drink in Europe doesn’t seem to be the point. We need to offer the world a God encounter and offending them with our lifestyle choices is not the way to do it.
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 8:59 am
Marc said:
I am sorry but I do not think ones culture should determine if we drink or smoke because that particular culture does. We are suppose to be counter-culture. We are ambassadors of the King. I live in a small rural town that is home to 2 colleges. I do not think that I have to engage in drinking alcohol, smoking or witchcraft to share the love of Jesus with them. Men like John G Lake and Smith Wigglesworth were considered abnormal during their day. Many thought they were crazy Christians. It is alright if people think we are different. We are not suppose to be conformed to this world.
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Ruth said:
maybe my first comment sounded like I said it’s okay to drink alcohol because my culture says it’s okay. I’m sorry if it sounded like that, because that was not what i was saying. although it’s common for people to drink in my culture I hardly drink alcohol. I do not conform to that habit. Maybe I drink 3 times a year one glass.
There are many things people in my culture do that i do not agree with. many christians here are addicted to smoking cigarettes..it’s not ok. you almost seem kinda radical if you don’t smoke or drink here. what i was trying to say was, when it comes to alcohol, in my opinion, I don’t see the bible telling us to NOT drink alcohol ever. The bible is clearly against getting drunk, but to me it’s not clear that the bible tells you to not drink alcohol at all.
So what i’m saying is … i’m not gonna make an issue in my country when i see a christian drink a glass of wine. Again - to me it’s not clear that I should make an issue when I see that happen.
When i’m in America - I wouldn’t drink even one glass if that makes someone stumble. And I agree with you we don’t have to sin to share Jesus. I personally don’t think that was what Paul meant.
and like theresa said - it’s a love issue.
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Ruth said:
sorry, that last “you” in “i agree with you” = you marc
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Marc said:
Here is another one to think about. In the book of Daniel chapter 1, Daniel says that he would not defile himself with the king’s delicacies, nor with wine. Why would he say that about wine? Daniel’s decision to abstain from wine led to God’s favor (verse 9) and the goodwill of the chief. Verse 17 says that God gave these four men knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams. They were found to be ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers. I find it interesting that Daniel said wine defiles.
I want to set the record straight. The Lord told me to consecrate myself to Him by giving up alcohol and chewing tobacco. I am not judging anyones decisions at all. That has not been the intent of my responses. I am very passionate about the things of God.
@Shawn- awesome blog topic. It has really stimulated great conversation. I wish we could all meet and discuss this topic further.
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Beer, Clergy and Layman at electric weekend said:
[…] On Friday Shawn posted this short piece about Pastors drinking beer and why people react so strongly about it. It’s proven to be quite a thought provoking topic and the comments have really discussed and debated the issue. Go check it out. # () […]
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Aaron said:
this is an interesting topic in general, it highlights to me the need for each of us to lay down our ability to be right. love. that is what holds us together.
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 6:47 pm
Ben G. said:
I definitely agree with you Aaron!
@all: I know I come across as rash and abrasive. I do apologize for that. Some topics tend to elicit a gut-level reaction from me and I really need to learn how to temper that with wisdom and sound judgment. I apologize for my rash comments. I still believe what I believe but I shouldn’t have brow beat some of you like I did. My sincere apologies.
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Michelle Van Loon said:
A while back, the pastor of a holiness denomination and his wife invited my husband and I to meet him at a brewpub in our area. We got there before the pastor and his wife, so we each ordered a beer. (My one beer a year.) The pastor’s wife ordered a beer, and the pastor looked around the table sadly and said, “I wish I could join you because I enjoy a good beer, but my ordination papers don’t allow me to drink in public.”
So funny that he invited us to meet him at a brewpub even though he couldn’t have a beer, huh? (Who knows - maybe he thought we needed a beer. Or his wife needed a beer.)
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Giving Up Something You Don’t Have To: Like, say, Beer and Marriage | The Fight Spot said:
[…] over 3 years. He was on a perpetual fast. This is the exact point that Michaela brought up in her comment: For some, the Lord asks or requires them to give up some liberties such as alchohol or tobacco. […]
Posted on June 3, 2007 at 10:59 pm
loud said:
46 comments and no one mentioned Martin Luther brewed his own beer??
Posted on June 5, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Eleanor said:
I have greatly enjoyed reading these comments!
As I was reading this, I was envisioning a humorous scenario: at Seder in Israel with a bring-along Welch’s. “I’m going to celebrate Passover with you, but I brought my own juice, but thank you…”
Fun Facts:
Welch’s grapejuice was actually INVENTED for use in communion during the temperance movement in the 1860’s. Google it (Links in posts can be so questionable).
Martin Luther DID grow his own hops and brew his own beer.
Monks throughout history have brewed beer and operated vineyards. One could infer from this that the contemplative prayer movement has been largely financed by alcohol production. Even today in Belgium, the Westvleteren Trappists are producing the highest rated beer in the world. “As monks, the rule is pray and work. These are the two pillars of a Trappist life,” Brother Joris. They don’t export, they don’t advertise, they don’t hire people, and they don’t participate in comparison. There “business practices” are much more “Christian” than most evangelicals I know.
I would say 1 Corinthians 8 is the place to go on this topic.
Blessings
Posted on June 6, 2007 at 11:33 am
Abby said:
The fact that everyone can agree on is that alcohal impares a persons mentality. Whether you’re just buzzed or totally wasted when you drink you’re impairing your mind to function it’s regular processing.
It can be argued back and forth whether or not drinking in itself is a sin. But the fact is when your mind is under the influence of alcohal your ability to choose right from wrong is not as confident. I have trouble sinning when I’m in the right state of mind.
Posted on June 7, 2007 at 9:19 am
Drew said:
My good friend made a good point the other day. He used to drink pop like a madman. Something like 5 or more cans of mountain dew a day. Now instead he drinks about half a glass of wine a day and it really satisfies him.
Posted on June 10, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Jenn said:
@ Ben G: No apology necessary. We all have different views and standpoints and some of us are going to find out that we were right and some of us are going to find out that we were so off-base that we can’t help but blush. The object in debate is to get the other person thinking about your side to honestly consider theirs. It’s not bad to vehemently disagree, just as long as it’s vehemently, not angrily.
But I’m glad you thought about it. This isn’t just my opinion. It’s what God has spoken to my heart over the years of wanting peircings and tattoos and being mad because he kept saying no. It boiled down to my selfishness and that in eternity, it won’t matter.
In reference to pastors needing to “nut up” and talk to their congregations about the difference between preference and sin, I completely agree. And sometimes, the line is definitely drawn. I wear pants and makeup even though I am guarentteed run into a COGer at Wendy’s after church. But if I am invited to a Church of God, I will wear a skirt and no more than foundation. Maybe that’s the peacekeeper in me, but the truth is that if someone waltzes up to me in a black Marilyn Manson tee shirt, talking to me about believing in God and walking with Him daily, my eyebrow will quirk involuntarily.
Posted on June 12, 2007 at 1:49 pm